I wrote this as a response to CK's question:
I just have one question for you.
do you also feel, that proselytizing against religion is also as wonderful? or is it only if u have heaven as an award that it is excusable?
Personally i don't know about proselytizing, but i would be in favor of getting the word out to all the fundi's, and letting them know that the truth is not on their side.
I think that most OTD'ers disagree with me. But since i believe that you only live your one life, is that not important enough? Should I not want to save people from engulfing their one and only life in shtusim (silliness) 24x7 ?
Truth is, as I have said in the post proper, I have no problem with proselytizers within the community that have the decency to care about my poor soul. To the contrary, I would find friends, or even strangers who could care less about something so important as my eternal afterlife disturbing. Strangely, I have a certain respect for the friends that are being 'mekarev' in their own way, often ad-nausea. Just the other day, the last day of Nisan, also the last day to bless god for blossoming trees, I passed a person I vaguely know, but who apparently knows me by reputation, on the street. He turns around, calls me by name and offers me to join him in the tree blessing ceremony, not even bothering to ask if I have already done it throughout the month. He assumed, correctly – I must add, that I have yet to have blessed a blossom.
I declined politely, getting out of the predicament by affirming – twice, that I have already been yiotseh the mitzveh. But, I couldn't help it but feel good that there are good people out there who care – amongst other feelings and thoughts that passed my mind. Once again, I wanted to pinch myself for not keeping my beliefs to myself – why does he have to know? I also thought about the pagan origination, perhaps, of this blessing.
Having said that, I think it is perfectly moral, and perhaps even obligatory to enlighten people of what may very well be the truth. Without any evidence to support the whole foundation of what these earnest people believe in why not open up their eyes? Had I been in the position to preach I would – without any qualms.
Contrary to some of my friends, former Chasidim who found the light, I don't see any value in having Judaism survive (in the shape of Ultra Orthodoxy, and perhaps at all – not sure about the last part). Note, I'm not saying that there's no value in Judaism, or in Chasidus, there is tremendous value which I, as one who lives within, see, enjoy, and try to contribute to, but the cons far outweigh the pros. For them to say that he would rather have Chassidim in a 100 years from now is narcissist and selfish. I'd much rather walk into the great white synagogue in a 100 years from now and lament the days when this was the center of activity and where the Rebbe decried the latest Zionist sympathizer than seeing it rebuilt larger and bigger to hold the exponential growth. If I'd only live that long.
My take on the original question, and on your post is that ultimately it's the thought that counts. Not of the proselytizer, but of the person being proselytized. I don't think it's important to actively try to make people stop being frum, even though I don't there is any inherent value to being frum. What is important is making people think about what they believe in and why they believe in it. Most of the people who have the negative traits associated with being frum, are the people who never really thought about why they're frum or what it means to them to be frum. They will always just follow the pack, usually with negative results. But in my experience, the frum people who really thought about it, and struggled with it and decided that it had meaning and value to them, are the people who I consider to be 'good frum Jews'. Because ultimately, to quote someone smarter than me, "the unexamined life is not worth living."
ReplyDeleteSo while I don't think it's important for us OTD'ers to try to actively make people not frum, I think it's important for us to try to make people question their beliefs and question the status quo, regardless of whether this makes them go OTD or not. In the end I'm fine with being a חוטא ומחטיא. It actually sounds kind of cool.
Ha! It's funny that I was the only person to comment on shabbos!
ReplyDeleteVery much opposed to proselytizing; it involves too much hubris, and fake caring.
ReplyDeleteSomeone who is proselytizing does NOT care about your soul, they can't even see your soul, blinded as they are by dogma.
proselytizing is the opposite of respect. and respect is what I appreciate.
Thanks Heretic, It's an honor to have a post written by you just to answer my question, And this picture is priceless! was this guy really praying in that dump, or was he photoshoped in?
ReplyDeleteBack to the contents of what you wrote, looks like we agree, And i also agree that there is no value for keeping chasidusism around. the only thing is that even if i would feel there is a value in that, I would still believe in getting out the truth (that OJ is all rubbish). I wouldn't worry about a 100% success rate.
lostgod, i obviously believe that it is all false, so even if i respect "the frum people who really thought about it, and struggled with it". if they ultimately "decided that it had meaning and value to them", they would still be in the wrong. Not everyone is in the position to come to the correct conclusion. 1 thing i know for sure is that just relying on your own though process, and not being exposed to science, and research done by others, is far from adequate to forming a conclusion. Therefore i would try to get the information out, and then let the person think about it.
ReplyDelete"decided that it had meaning and value to them", they would still be in the wrong.
ReplyDelete__________________
Meaning and value are entirely subjective. Thus you are in no position to say what is right or wrong for them.
I find that many frum people, even having gone off the derech, can not escape their absolutist habits of thinking.
Continued:
ReplyDelete"OJ is all rubbish" is not the "truth". It is not a fact at all. It is a value judgement.
"OJ is based on assumptions that are scientifically and historically incorrect" is a fact.
Can you see the difference?
More on proselytizing: Who's doing the proselytizing? Is it a stranger or a friend or loved one? If it is a stranger, it's pretty far fetched that they actually care about my soul, since they don't even know me. If a loved one or a stranger, the first rule of a relationship is accept someone as they are. You can't have a relationship with someone who keeps trying to change you.
So no matter in which direction, I have no good feelings towards prosyletizers.
LG,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that the best option is to educate, and let the decision be made by the one that counts most, but for different reason. It isn't practical to change one's beliefs by dogma, even if your dogma is right. It has to come by the person being able to think for himself and that is best achieved by knowledge. If one still remains frum even after knowing and accepting (those are two different steps) the scientific method chances are that he or she is orthoprax.
Kisarita,
imagine if you believe (falsely or not) that I will die by eating a certain food, will you not tell me – a perfect stranger - if you have the chance? What is wrong with one who believes that I will suffer 12 months of hell who tries to convince me to sway right?
CK,
things being rubbish but useful isn't reason to discard, even if it has no value of truth whatsoever. Does it matter if the turkey story of thanksgiving actually happened or not? If people find value in it for whatever reason then let them. Let us.
And Kisarita already wrote what I was going to regarding the subjectivity of 'value'.
Kisarita,
ReplyDeleteWhat, in your opinion, motivates a stranger to come over to me and talk me out of 'sinning'?
i think loyalty to an idea more than loyalty to you.
ReplyDeletebut you are right that I have stopped strange children from running in the street and things like that.
Imagine...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw
"What, in your opinion, motivates a stranger to come over to me and talk me out of 'sinning'?"
ReplyDeleteYou forgot that it's a big mitzvah to proselytize to other Jews. I think it's combination of 4 things:
1. loyalty to an idea
2. Saving your soul
3. It's a mitzvah (They will get paid)
4. They want to make god happy.
Chaim, I must agree.
ReplyDeleteYet, thinking back to those years when I was on the other side did I ever try because I was hoping to get rewarded? I hardly think so. Rather, just like now, I had a desire to share the truth with others. Why should they miss out?
Only, now, it is much more practical for me to live and let live so to speak, not to stir things up too much.
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ReplyDelete