Thursday, March 05, 2009

Guest Post by: Laura

About a couple weeks ago, a blog-post about Boro Park written by Meghan, a non-Jewish Boro Park resident, was making the rounds, either via links on some j-blogs or by email forwarding. I thought the post painted a very unflattering picture of Boro Parkers, but that didn’t concern me much. For one thing, everyone’s entitled to his/her opinion, including a negative one about Boro Park people; and for another, there *are* unfavorable things one can say about Boro Park, as well as about Chassidim, which is basically what BP is comprised of. My gripe, which I voiced in my comments on this blog, concerned the obvious inaccuracies in Meghan’s story. Of course, it wasn’t merely the fact that she’d done a lazy job of reporting the facts; the post was her personal writeup and if her observational skills are seriously lacking, that’s her own concern, especially as an aspiring writer. What irked me was that her apocryphal descriptions stemmed from the general stereotype of Chassidim as a misogynistic people who ignore or mistreat women in their day-to-day lives. Implicit in this stereotype is the belief that Chassidic women are meek, subservient, submissive, under the control of their domineering husbands and/or men in general. Despite the blatant falsehood of this claim, the stereotype continues to be perpetuated, not least by innocent writings such as Meghan’s.

In response to my comments on this blog, I received a few private emails from acquaintances who wanted to know what my beef with Meghan was, and why I was so irritated by her post. All of them (Meghan, too, it seems) assumed that I’d taken the post personally for some reason. To me, this assumption was/is astounding. Can one not take issue with a topic from an objective standpoint? Would I have to be personally insulted by a remark or action or attitude in order to protest against it? Does that mean I cannot feel outraged by the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment, just because I’m white?

There would, of course, have been nothing wrong if I’d taken personal offense at what I viewed as an insulting description of a community I am part of. But in truth, that was/is not the case. I have chosen to write this post because I abhor stereotypes, particularly when they are untrue. The following, then, is my view on this issue. I welcome any dissenting comments.

Judaism, like every major religion, is patriarchal. Actually, most societies, including western society, are patriarchal. Still, when you walk on the street in Manhattan and see a jeans-clad woman pushing a double-stroller, you don’t generally think, Poor subservient woman, how repressive her life must be at the beck and call of her chauvinist husband! And if a man lets a door slam in your face, you’re more apt to think, What an idiot! than You can tell he thinks women are second-class citizens. But substitute the jeans for a skirt and wig, and make the man Chassidic, and presto! Your first thought is about sexism.

To truly understand how Chassidism (or any group, but this post is about Chassidim) functions in its day-to-day routine, you have to differentiate between theory and practice, and separate the formal (rabbinic) aspects of Judaism from its social and familial workings.

In theory, Orthodox Judaism, and by extension Chassidism, holds that the man is the master of the household. (Yes, I know wives must be accorded respect and love and sexual fulfillment, but Judaism’s premise is still that man is head.) In practice, however, Chassidic wives are as likely (perhaps “more likely” is the accurate phrase here) as their husbands to hold the reins in the household. Decisions about schooling for the kids, about when and where to spend vacations, about how household money is spent, etc., are usually made as a team, with the wife often having the bigger say. When a couple gets married, the boy usually (in about 90% of the cases would be my guess) comes to live in the community the girl grew up in, and he is expected to adjust accordingly. Families who go to bungalow colonies for the summer generally go with a group composed of the wife’s friends, not the husband’s. And if women are expected to have and raise a number of children (an exhausting job, to be sure, and a probable source of the above-mentioned stereotype), men are expected to financially support all these children.

(A note about family size: If a woman decides she wants a break from childbearing and tells a rabbi she can’t handle having another kid, the rabbi will almost certainly give her dispensation for birth control. But let a man try telling a rabbi he needs a break from having children because he can’t afford the expense, and find me a rabbi who won’t tell him, “Der eibishter vet helfen,” and encourage him to simply have more faith.)

In respect to the formal vs. social aspects of Judaism, the formal rabbinic structures are undeniably patriarchal. A female has way less halachic obligations than a male, and she is afforded no official status or “honors” in either the shuls or in the ceremonial parts of Judaism. (Personally, I do not know of a single Chassidic woman who gives a damn about this, but I know scores of men who wish they’d have less obligations.) And though feminists have used this point to condemn Orthodox Judaism, the reality is that most people are only truly affected by the social/familial aspects, by how they are treated in their day-to-day lives.

This post is already longer than I planned it to be; otherwise, I would list scores of ways in which chassidic girls/women are favored from the social perspective: their comparative freedom during their teenage years; the better secular education; the customary expectation of financial support, yet the freedom to work if they wish; and on and on. I do not have to iterate, because it’s obvious to anyone who’s been on the streets of Boro Park, that Chassidic women own businesses and shops, and deal assertively and confidently with vendors or business associates.

This is why I find it implausible that a Chassidic man would nonchalantly cut in line in front of any woman and not expect her to protest. It is also why I find the idea that a shopkeeper would deliberately ignore a female customer not a little preposterous.

_____

*For a basic overview of the evolvement of Orthodox Women in the workplace, check out Professor Menachem Friedman’s article on this topic. Note that the article focuses on Israeli, not American women, and was written about twenty years ago, so much has changed since then.

Back to the Grandmother: The New Ultra-Orthodox Woman

40 comments:

  1. > ...I know scores of men who wish they’d have less obligations.

    I always felt this way - that frum women had it so much easier than men due to the easier halachic load they had to shoulder.

    > This is why I find it implausible that a Chassidic man would nonchalantly cut in line in front of any woman and not expect her to protest. It is also why I find the idea that a shopkeeper would deliberately ignore a female customer not a little preposterous.

    But she's not just a woman. She's also a non-Jew, a shiksa, an outsider, and one that has decided to intrude on their space by moving into their holy shtetl. That's a potent combination for exclusion.

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  2. Wow, I didn't take it that way at all. I grew up back east, but going back there I find pushy and agressive male behavior everywhere - not just Boro Park, and I certainly don't think my friends and family are meek women. It's just harsh there. I didn't think Meghan's comment spoke to Chassidim as much as moving from Oregon - ultra polite - to NYC.

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  3. I've never been to Borough Park but I couldn't see anything wrong with the description on the basis of observing Haredi communities in Israel so assumed it was an accurate representation of Borough Park. It didn't seem insulting at all. It's the way outsiders might see it.

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  4. Hi Laura.
    As far as Meghan's blogpost is concerned, you are completely off the mark.

    She did express a lot of affection for chassidim and chassidism in her blog. And she also described what she saw in borrough park. She never said chassidism was mysoginic, nor anything. She just said that she never felt so much ignored.

    You cannot say if this is right or wrong, because you seem to belong, and she is writing about someone who does not belong. So how can you say her observational skills are poor?

    You are right that one is not allowed to tell a "Shabbes-Goy" explicitely what to do... But who says that this person didn't feel akward making hints, so she was a bit more explicit.

    you were not there. How can you say what she writes is wrong?

    And the whole story whether or not chassidism is patriarchal is completely besides the point, since Meghan does not draw any conclusions.

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  5. "so assumed it was an accurate representation of Borough Park."

    Moom, that's precisely my point. Most people believe what they read, unless they have particular inside knowledge that contradicts the material, or are suspicious of the writer's intentions. I do not know Meghan, but if one can judge from a person's writing style, I'd guess that Meghan is a genuinely nice person. I'm pretty certain that she thought her portrayal of Boro Park a positive one. And that's why her descriptions are believable. When it's obvious that a writer has an ax to grind, readers (unless they're really superficial) become suspicious. But Meghan has no agenda. My point was that she did what so many people do: judged a situation according to her preconceived notions based on common stereotype. In doing so, she has also perpetuated the stereotype. You're a case in point. You believed her. If you'd want to write a post about chassidim now, your observations would automatically be colored by some of the "knowledge" you've acquired from posts such as Meghan's.

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  6. is this the community G-d wants us to build on earth? does G-d want us to disrepect, mistreat, and disdain the goyim? characterize them as shiksas? We take it as acceptable, but what does out human intuition tell us?

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  7. Yael,
    God wants the same things FSM wants. That said, I tend to disagree with Laura's interpretation of Meghan's post. I also tend to disagree with Meghan's interpretation of me. When I'll have time I will elaborate.

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  8. A Chinese proverb says, "The hit dog barks."

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  9. Interesting article, Shtreimel. I'd like to add that in parts of Eastern Europe frum women took up lowly paid factory jobs with the arrival of the Industrial Revolution. Trade unions' solidarity with those women in claiming better pay and work conditions resulted in the European feminist movement.

    Comparing the secular education frum girls and "regular" girls receive, the formers' secular education strikes me as substandard, so it comes as little surprise that jobs do not only by choice but by necessity get pursued in the confinements of their respective communities. It compares to Switzerland, where a brother of mine lives. He claims that if not for its political seclusion, Switzerland would be at the brink of an economic catastrophe as people there could by no means compete with their peers from the surrounding EU countries.

    I've been contemplating about the catty reactions Meghan's post has received, and a line by Michael Wex' "Born to Kvetch" came to mind. To paraphrase it, a non-Jewish woman is labelled a "goyte" and not a "shiksa" anymore once she becomes sexually unattractive.

    As for the cutting in line and how it is perceived, I think it has got a lot to do with "soft skills". I'm not sure whether this came up in a conversation with you or some other frum person, but the consensus was that frum people often lack what is deemed "good manners" in the secular world. So self-perception and external perception are bound to clash.

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  10. Froylein, I'm not sure why you consider the reaction to Meghan's post *catty*. If you review the comments on her blog, on this blog and even on Dovbear's, you'll find that the reaction was mostly positive. On this blog, I'm quite certain I was the only one who commented negatively. On Dovbear's, where there were a number of commentors who viewed the post cynically, the comments were not at all catty--in my opinion. They simply reflected some healthy skepticism about some of her conspicuously inaccurate points.

    Regarding the goyte-shikse quote, I'm at a loss. What in heaven's name is this supposed to mean?

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  11. Laura, I perceived any comment I've read that could not (or would not) distinguish between the essay-style narrative of a personal blog as an account of personal experience and a sociological research paper as catty. If there has been any conspicuous inaccuracy, then it is the arguing of points that have never been made. I particularly resent the suggestion of deliberate dishonesty reverberating throughout the comments by her critics. One would need to have some sort of factual basis to make that sort of allegations. None of the commenters can actually prove her wrong in any way as she was only just relating her personal experiences. If those commenters' personal experiences clash with Meghan's, so be it. Mention it if you feel like it, afterall interaction is what Web 2.0 applications are all about. Meghan did not elevate her experiences by claiming they were symptomatic of her environment. She was not offensive to anyone. Yet there were people who stuck the "shiksa" label on her, and that term has got a decidedly not neutral, suggestive tone to it. Additionally, I find those people that try to figure out where exactly she dwells from the pictures she's posted rather creepy. If anything related to Meghan's post has reflected negatively on the Borough Park community, then it's some of the reactions her post has triggered.

    When I contribute posts to the blog I write for, I'm aware it'll receive up to a few hundreds of thousands of clicks, so I put myself (rather, the online persona as I won't share each and any detail about myself online) and my writing out there for public reflection and scrutiny. Meghan, however, chose to share her experiences with her friends and family via the convenient way of a public blog. Whoever stumbled upon her blog by chance, a link or a Google search, should treat her with the courteousy one would expect of a guest in a stranger's home. If somebody feels they really need to get Meghan's perception of Borough Parkers straight, then do as they would have done in the Old World and invite her for Shabbos - not as the one to handle the appliances but as a guest. When the first Turkish people immigrated here and a few of them ended up in my great-grandmother's village, it was a matter taken for granted by her to frequently invite those people. Despite a language gap they got along. Smiles are understood universally.

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  12. > What irked me was that her apocryphal descriptions stemmed from the general stereotype of Chassidim as a misogynistic people who ignore or mistreat women in their day-to-day lives. Implicit in this stereotype is the belief that Chassidic women are meek, subservient, submissive, under the control of their domineering husbands and/or men in general.

    Laura, as to your post in general, you're nitpicking (Lazy job, etc). More importantly, Meghan is giving her first hand impression and you're insisting her impression is wrong. But that's her impression, that's how she percieves it and that's how she reported it. And her post had great reception. You haven't invited her for a Shabbos, to see what it's really like in Laura's house. Hey, you haven't even invited me! ;)

    And lastly, while in the home, it might be the women who wear the pants, or knickers as might be the case iun your community, there's no doubt that the real communal power lies with the men.

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  13. BH, when you say "communal power," can you be more specific? I'm not really sure what you mean.

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  14. AVRUMI said.....

    I'll start with the particular examples, then I'll get to the overall argument.

    Laura, I have a question for you. If you have one person who oppresses people, one who disregards there pleas and denies their demanded rights. Then you who have another who's power of oppression runs so deep that the victims don't even know what rights they have or what has been taken from them. Who is worse?

    You right that regarding women's lower status (more about that in a moment) you "Do not know of a single Chassidic woman who gives a damn about this" This doesn't prove anything. Sure they don't give a damn, because they have been taught not to. I don't care if Muslim women are thrilled with their privilege of covering themselves up in shapeless robes. If they do that not by choice (by which I mean having reviewed all the options out there and choose to de-shape) than this is oppression. And if they are "happy" with it, than the oppression runs deeper and is way scarier, I think.

    Which brings me to another point you make. You complain about the different response women in jeans get for having double carriages to the response women in wig and skirts get. I quote "when you walk on the street in Manhattan and see a jeans-clad woman pushing a double-stroller, you don’t generally think, Poor subservient woman, how repressive her life must be at the beck and call of her chauvinist husband!......But substitute the jeans for a skirt and wig........ and presto! Your first thought is about sexism." Well of course!, if a women who you can see expresses herself in her own way and is part of a culture that excepts that (I'm not saying Manhattan culture is perfect, so don't harp on this point) than your best guess would be that, like her style, her kids were her choice too. However, if you see a women from a culture that "requires" her to get rid of her hair and replace it with a stupid wig, when she is from a culture that "requires" her to wear a skirt instead of leaving her clothes to the choice of her sense of self, yes Laura, your best bet is that the same holds true for the stroller she's pushing. If her own hair and clothes are not her choice, if her own expression is controlled, why should I think that her choice of children was any different?

    And as I said earlier, I know they will say they "chose", well, if they all "choose" why don't we get to see a variety of different choices amongst the many women the BP community has. I know they will say they are happy, but freedom isn't giving people happiness, it's enabling them to take it.

    And your scenario of the woman asking the rabbi to take a break, that doesn't say anything about the status of women it says something about the dynamics of faith. If a woman comes to a rabbi after having eight kids saying that she can't have another one, if the rabbi would say continue doing what your doing and 'the bashefer vet helfen' he knows he is in big trouble because chances are she'll get pregnant again. So what should he say, refrain from intercourse? the rabbi doesn't want any of 'em going to look for that elsewhere. Compared to financial situations of the distant future, a slight of hand and no one is held accountable. Sometimes you give more room on the leash, so that you have abetter grip.

    You claim that women own shops, but your measuring stick is wrong. You are using the measurment of freedom in the secular world to asses freedom in the chassidic community. True, in the modern world the ability to own a business is the ultimate, the American dream. In the Chassidic world, however, this isn't the case. From chassidim the ultimate dream is to able to "Dwell in the home of the Lord" every reach chassid will pay lip service to this. But women are denied this "paradise". If you are going to asses chassidic women's place in society you have to measure it in their society. And in their society the state held in highest esteem is off limits to them.

    And what do you mean by their comparative freedom during their teenage years, because they are believed to be too stupid to study what chassidim consider most valued? Freedom, that's not what I would call it.

    So much for the particulars.

    You say you abhor stereotypes, and I agree that stereotypes about people are bad, but what's wrong with associating a culture with an idea? What is a culture if not the carrier of it's ideas? So, what's wrong by saying that a particular culture promotes particular behaviors?

    But, I agree with you that Megan got it wrong. She thought that the men oppress the women, that the many babies and their dress code is a result of the men in their life, it isn't. The men, like the women, are to use your words "meek, subservient, submissive" Meek against the old ideas, subservient to the concepts and submissive towards an unquestioned code.

    Chassidic men and women are confined to an idea that looms around them. An idea that doesn't let the women critically asses their reproductive rights. An idea that doesn't let the men make their own financial decisions. An idea that doesn't let it's adherents notice everyone.

    But Megan did hint to it, she noticed it to when she writes "not once have I seen a Hasidic man or woman walk at a leisurely pace. They walked very quick and with purpose." Megan noticed that they never step back to reevaluate, they never get a chance to stop and wonder about it, never get a chance to even choose it. They always walk very quick and with purpose , Megan noticed, they go about their life as if driven by some outside force. The force that dictates who they notice, the force that dictates who they are. Megan's point is not so much a critique as much as it is a lament. A lament for selves lost to an ancient idea.

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  15. Avrumi, I have to reread your comment at a more leisurely pace (probably not tonight) to see if you've actually shown me a hole in my argument or whether--which is what I gleaned from first, admittedly quick, reading--you simply made another argument entirely, an argument against the basic premise of chassidism. Regardless, I want to thank you. You are the first commentor who actually addressed my argument. Everyone else seems to be focusing on Meghan, who was the catalyst perhaps, but certainly not the focus of my post.

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  16. >BH, when you say "communal power," can you be more specific?

    What's there not to understand? The real power in the community is solely in the hands of the men, specifically the Rabbonim. Let's face it, despite the fact that you're comfy in your station and role in life, women ARE second class citizens.

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  17. Laura, you've dedicated the entire introductory paragraph to Meghan, which not only paints her in an unfavourable light but with its condescending remarks is rather insulting to her. So don't be surprised if people choose to focus on that aspect of your post rather than on the apologetic treatise you've delivered for the intellectual and social complacency that makes (a large share of) Chasidishe women not try to level with their male peers according to the ideals of the Constitution of the country you dwell in.

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  18. Avrumi, I reread your comment now, and I see my first impression was right. You're making an argument against the entire setup of chassidism or ultra-orthodoxy. Your take on the limitations of chassidic women apply equally well to chassidic men. Despite chassidism's reverence for the cerebral, do you know a single FFB male chassid who is a researcher? A scientist? Who's come up with any revolutionary theory in mathematics? Despite the plethora of talent among chassidim, has any one of them produced a literary work of genius, either heartbreaking or staggering? ;-) If you believe that chassidism is an oppressor, you have to accept that it is an equal opportunity oppressor.

    Regardless, that's not at all what my post was about. I take no stand on chassidism per se (in this post). In fact, I do not even claim that women and men are considered equal according to the tenets of Judaism or chassidism (which is actually a social movement within Judaism), or--as Baal Habos implied--that women have more power than men. What I *do* say is that the stereotype of chassidic men being misogynists and chassidic women being subservient to them is fallacious. I tried to explain (I may have done this badly; my readers seem to misunderstand me) that how the day-to-day chassidism functions is different from the theory. I strictly emphasized *day-to-day*, which would include shopping, raising kids, household decisions and the myriad other details most people's routines consist of.

    I'm rushing now, but I want to elaborate on this a bit more later.

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  19. BH, when you say "communal power," can you be more specific? I'm not really sure what you mean.


    Laura,
    Do you remember the Indian Shaitel fiasco?
    Do you realize that every time there is some crises or tragedy within the community, the women's tznius is to blame?
    Re the line cutting, as a BP woman myself, I don't think men make the conscious decision to cut ahead of me because as a chasidishe woman I am *supposed* to be submissive. But the impulsive, uncultured chosid dares to do that because he *expects* me to be meek, complacent and too *aidel* to protest, as most chasidishe women will be.

    HoezenT

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  20. Froylein, you're right. Now that I'm rereading my post, I do sound terribly condescending in that first paragraph.

    What makes you label my argument "apologetic"? And in which way does it advocate social and/or intellectual complacency?

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  21. Laura, I've got a really busy schedule this week, so please be patient with me as I'll try to answer your questions in detail as soon as I possibly can.

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  22. I read Meghan's post a few weeks ago, and I didn't think there was any stereotyping. Just her perceptions of what is an admitedly unusual community.

    As for the rest of your post, men control the Frum community. Full stop.
    Do you know any female poskim? Rabbanim? How about a girl's school where a Rabbi isn't the one at the top?

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  23. G*3, have you bothered reading my post at all?

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  24. Yes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what your saying is that while the community is patriarchichal and in theory men run things, in reality women have plenty of freedom and "In practice, however, Chassidic wives are as likely (perhaps “more likely” is the accurate phrase here) as their husbands to hold the reins in the household."

    This is true up to a point. The choices that the women have are choices of activities, stores, schools, etc. that have been sanctioned by the community, which is run by...

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  25. "As for the rest of your post, men control the Frum community. Full stop."

    G*3, sorry to disregard your confidently stated "full stop," but I feel compelled to correct your statement, lest uninformed readers will assume you've actually said something intelligent. The frum community is controlled by the Torah and its commentary, specifically halacha. Since frum people generally believe that the Torah was dictated by God, and since God is presumed to be genderless--masculine pronouns used to refer to Him, notwithstanding--the frum community is controlled by a unique Being who is neither male nor female.

    That said, each community has accepted different mores (though all supposedly abide by halacha). Although there is a rebbe or ruv at the head of each community, or sect (and these are always male, as I mentioned in my post regarding the formal aspects of Orthodox Judaism), ultimately, the rebbe/ruv only has as much power as his constituents allow him. Depending on the topic at hand, women and men choose to make their views known. Depending on how deeply either the ruv or his constituents feel about an issue (and depending on who is more obnoxious and persistent) the topic either becomes part of the accepted norms or simply falls by the wayside.

    I will post some examples in my next comment.

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  26. Here are some examples:
    The education in post-WWII chassidic schools and talmud torahs have evolved in quite a big way within the last sixty years. In the Bais Rochel schools, during the 50s, 60s and 70s, the secular curriculum included classic literature (even Shakespeare, at one point), modern literature, very primary mathematics,and more, which I will not bother to list. Gradually, aspects of the literature subject got dropped till the entire subject was eliminated, sometime during the 90s. At the same time, the level of math education became higher, with algebra, geometry, etc., becoming part of the standard curriculum. This change occured partly because Bais Rochel graduates started joining the secular teaching staff during the 80s (there may have been a tiny minority during the 70s) and began to make their views known. Additionally, the parent body during the 80s was much more attuned to what their daughters were studying than their own holocaust-survivor parents had been. Mothers started speaking up, instigating the various right-leaning changes in curriculum. Whether it was the teachers or the mothers who caused the changes is irrelevant; the point is, it was women.

    The talmud torahs' secular education actually improved during the last fifteen years. Though it is still minimal, the curriculum is more comprehensive than it had been 20-30 years ago. Again, it was mothers who began to demand a better level of education.

    Another example will follow shortly. Sorry to chop up my response this way, but I have too many other things begging for my time.

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  27. Here's another example:
    About a couple years ago (I don't remember the timing precisely, so I may be off), someone *discovered* that the wigs frum women were wearing were made of hair that had been cut off as sacrifices for a Hindu god. Rabbanim quickly declared the wearing of such hair against halacha. Immediately, scores of women either burnt their wigs or simply refused to wear them. Instead, they donned scarves and horribly looking synthetic wigs. For about a month, the debates about the wigs raged, and during this time only a small minority of frum women continued to wear their custom human wigs. Gradually, the furor died down, different rabbanim came up with different opinions, and ultimately, every woman did whatever she wanted. Most women chose to continue wearing the wigs they'd been previously wearing, some decided to wear only synthetics, and still others switched to scarves only (shpitzlech), or covered their wigs with a hat or scarf.

    In cases where the women switched head-gear, it was generally the woman's personal decision. No rav specifically decreed it (though many rabbanim have been campaigning for it for years)and as far as I know, no husband forced his wife to do it. In fact, if anecdotes making the rounds at the time are to be believed, several women donned their new form of head-gear expressly against their husbands' wishes. Of course, no empirical study of this has been done, so I only have anecdotes to go by.

    My point is, rabbanim's words go only as far as their constituents allow them to go. In this example, most people, especially women, were horrified at the thought that they may be guilty of idolatry and chose to discard their wigs. At least for a while. Once they figured out that halacha could easily be on their side, they simply did what they wanted to do, without asking their rav about it (in most cases).

    And one final example: The internet. Most frum rabbanim banned the internet when it started becoming prevalent, certainly for home use and even, unless crucially needed, for work. Did the constituents listen? I'll let you readers decide.

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  28. My wife "decided" to go help her mom do some pre-pesach cleaning, and she "suggested" that I eat out last evening.
    The line at the restaurant consisted of mostly women (Hasidic, of course) so I, as respect for the norms in my community, kept a slight distance, as I waited to be served. I'm not sure whether because the "woman" taking the orders had missed me, or because the "women" who arrived after me were standing in line in a regular fashion - but I was served only after all the "women's" orders had been taken.
    My point: I think Laura is correct. A lot of the misinterpretation of Hasidic men’s behavior towards women could be attributed to a misreading of the wall that exists between the sexes in Hasidic communities. But that must be differentiated from misogyny. To people who grow up outside this culture, some actions may appear rude, when in reality, the intent is not negative at all. The truth is that in typical daily interaction, women in Hasidic society are treated as separate but equal, and yes, sometimes more equal than men, as a hungry man in KJ witnessed today.

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  29. As for Meghan's post (which I don't think is really the point here), I took it as a blog post by an aspiring writer with poetic license, practicing and sharpening her pencil. As an insider, I took the few improbable anecdotes as having been added only for effect.

    But hey, "that" is only "my" impression.

    I did find in her post some backing to my thinking that her impressions might have been tainted by puzzlement over the separation between the sexes: She wrote, "I found myself intimidated by this culture. Never making eye contact, they didn’t acknowledge me. They looked right through me."

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  30. JK, you *think* Laura is correct? Come on! Dare to assert yourself! You know that my explanation of how chassidic society functions is accurate, and so does any chussid who reads this post. It just takes a little depth to analyze something clearly, and a little guts not to parrot the party line.

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  31. Oh and by the way, JK, I'm thrilled that there's finally another comment that relates directly to what I wrote in the post.

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  32. I think current orthodox society is brilliant. They have their women working, bearing and caring for multiple children, doing all the housework/shopping/cooking - and they have them believing it is their idea to do all of this! Women are convinced that this is the way Hashem wants them to live - and who put this idea in their heads? Modern day gedollim, Artscroll biographies, and other similar brainwashing Jewish publications that rewrite history and leave out that most previous gedollim supported their families and learned. Making a parnassah and learning are a normal and expected part of a married man's life. Orthodox women not only cringe at the concept of feminism and women's rights, they vehemently oppose them!

    As I said, no one can do mental gymnastics and entanglements like Jews!

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  33. In the Hasidic world that I know (also a branch within Orthodox society), the husband is the breadwinner in the majority of families. The wife gets to "choose" whether or not to work.

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  34. Yes, I also live in Anonymous 2's world. But Anonymous 1 makes one very good point. The life of a kollel wife is difficult, yet most of them seem to accept their role happily and consider it their tafkid in life.

    As for Orthodox women vehemently opposing women's rights and Jews excelling above all others at mental gymnastics ---- Nah!

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  35. "They have their women working, bearing and caring for multiple children, doing all the housework/shopping/cooking - and they have them believing it is their idea to do all of this!"

    Well, at least if the women are economically independent, they can throw the husbund out if he does not behave...
    I suppose the "kollel-lifestyle" will have a "divorce-backlash" in a few year's time.

    By the way: the "liberated woman" does exactely the same, just with fewer kids...
    shoshi

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  36. Anonymous 1 here - The difference between secular and frum women living this life is that the frum woman thinks that she is doing it to receive her reward in olam habah by supporting her husband's learning. These sacrifices are her holy work as opposed to opening a gemorah. These working women normally get married very young and are not college educated. If they do go to college they mostly get degrees in helping professions that are primarily dominated by women and are typically low paying (teaching/physical therapy/speech therapy). I don't anticipate a "divorce backlash" because, if anything, at least the frum woman feels she has a higher purpose for supporting her husband, unlike the secular woman who just sees herself as being taken advantage of. That's where the brainwashing makes the difference.

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  37. Yes, I agree with Anonymous 1. I don't foresee a divorce backlash either. Once an individual becomes "enlightened" and begins to meet many others who think as she/he does, it's easy to forget that the enlightened ones are still the tiny minority. So no, I don't see a spate of divorces, I don't see chassidism imploding, and I don't see OJ moving anywhere but to the right -- anytime in the near future.

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  38. Just as many have stumbled upon my blog, I have stumbled across this one. I find it fascinating that laura has decided to put her piece here rather than comment on my blog itself. For someone who feels as passionately as they do about what I have wrote, I guess I would be wrong to presume this person would ask me questions about my intentions instead of making assertions of their own.

    I've been a writer for a long time. I am fully aware of the line between critiquing ones ideas and thoughts vs. critiquing ones ability to write. "it wasn’t merely the fact that she’d done a lazy job of reporting the facts; the post was her personal writeup and if her observational skills are seriously lacking, that’s her own concern, especially as an aspiring writer."

    Unbelievable.

    Blogs are not considered factual. You will NEVER see a blog in annotations or as references for any serious writing because blogs are not considered true information. I in no way said "These are the facts of this religion...". How can someone's observations be "seriously lacking"? They are observations! They aren't concrete! They aren't facts! This is what I saw. If you are taking it personally, it's time to look inward because I refuse to be judged for it.

    I always want feedback. I always want criticism. But this is neither. This is not constructive.

    I'd love to talk to laura about this more one-on-one, but I cannot find a way to contact her on here. And I'd love to have the same opportunity to do a "guest post" here. I think laura would find it interesting.

    Thank you for everyone's support and encouragement. I wrote that blog months ago and the positivity still comes in daily. And I especially am appreciative of froylein's comments. Keep them coming, and keep them constructive. Blogs are a wonderful outlet for thought and conversation.

    I plan on keeping them coming.

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  39. Meghan,
    I don't know if you read the comments at your blog, but I have contacted "Laura" who would like to talk to you. My email address in on the sidebar. Email me for her address.

    PS
    I would love a guest post. It is always good to see how we are perceived by or neighbors.

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  40. In the frum world, SPACE is a male prerogative. Men have the freedom occupy a space, and when they do, women will move out of it. Even if it is the women's section (designated to begin with, by men). No woman will ever dare to step into a space designated for men. Even if she happens to be sitting shiva alone in her own living room and they want to make minyan.

    You may think this is trivial but the symbolic and hence psychological implications of mastery and subservience, superiority and inferiority, are very significant.

    The same way with ritual and religious obligations, ritual may seem trivial and even burdensome, especially when often the women are quite influential within their own homes,
    but the symbolic message, and resultant psychological experience of inferiority is very significant.

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