Many of us here are in a similar quandary to mine; in its crudest form it could be phrased as: do kids get affected negatively by a parent's action—in our case actions that are incoherent with the community at large, and with what they are taught in school, in the backyard and even at home?
The question doesn't apply only to people that have already made the decision to leave, but in many ways to those who secretly subscribe to heresy and occasionally slip, naturally. How about the couple that after much contemplation concluded that this life has no truth or otherwise any other value but the family connections which is why they still they send their kids to cheider and Beis Rochel but, at home they can watch TV on Shabbos—when the kids don't see. Kids see everything, even if not explicitly. Often the child doesn't realize the implications of what he or she sees but eventually the pieces fall in place. I know that firsthand.
There are many ways to look at it, and quite possibly there are no answers. The variables are way too complicated to comprehend, not to mention calculate.
Naturally, I have been thinking about it from day one. Not only myself, but every father or mother who breaks through the shackles of indoctrination grapples with this very issue. The other day I got an email from a well wishing person who wanted to discuss the issue. I'd love to hear from you, and possibly get a discussion going. I'm still trying to get my thoughts together on this and will post something as soon as I can formulate it, meanwhile I would love to hear your thoughts.
i stumbled upon your blog completely accidentally. i feel almost like a bizarro mirror image of you. i lead (generally speaking) a rather 'open' lifestyle, but have this almost perverse desire to be a part of the hasidic world. my wife caught me looking at hasidic rabbis on youtube once, and called me a "wannabe"...which i of course heartily denied. the truth is i am trying to grow 'payos' and learn yiddish (although not really succeeding at either) but fear the reprecussions. only my six yr old son seems to pick up that something is amiss...which is why your observation about your kids is dead on. btw, how easy is it to sway ones' spouse to the "other side" (whichever that side may be). your quote about the couple that now watches TV on shabbat, is that a personal experience? or is your other half in the dark?
ReplyDelete"Wannabe"
Caught looking at hassidic rebbes on YouTube. Now that's an original perversion...
ReplyDeleteOn the subject of education, I think you owe your children to teach them what you have learned about life. On the pragmatic level, if you are living a lie, your children will see through it sooner or later and they probably won't thank you for hiding it from them. Again you owe them the truth.
Well, in the "Democratic Republic of Germany" (communist eastern Germany), children watched "Biene Maja" at home, but they knew they were forbidden to tell at school (because it would make known that they were watching forbidden "Western Television Programms".
ReplyDeleteIn this case, a sense of "conspiration" can be quite nice, (sometimes also hard to bear), since it affected the whole country (everyone watched Biene Maja, and no one spoke about it, the one who really toed the party line were nerds...)
Your case seems a bit different:
1) To prepare your children for a future "outside the community", if they wish to embrace this path, they should have good secular education
2) Your lifestyle is not "imposed by the state" and I think this is the place where the dissonance chimes in: On the one hand, you make quite some efforts to belong to the "chassidic community", and on the other hand you negate it? How should your children understand this? On one hand, you choose to be there, for yourself and for your children, and on the other hand, you secretely negate the principles???
(Do you enforce "jewish law" on your children??? How could they understand that they are bound, but not you???)
I would rather move to a more moderate environment, so that you do not have to be a hypocrite. A hypocrite is not a good example.
HH
ReplyDeleteUnfortunatly there are so many "frum" men in this boat it's quite scary. You will mess up your kids if you let on to the fraud. I know that leaving the fold at your stage is near impossible, so unfortunatly, your kids are stuck.
Your 2 options are to allow them to let on or not. If you don't allow them to let on, then they may be happy in the secluded life of chareidi jewry or they may end up in shoes similar to yours if they figure things out. I guess you could say they have a 50/50 chance.
If you do let on, they will become confused and messed up. In my opinon, the worst types are the young chassidish bums. They don't join real society and have a normal life, yet they can't fit into chareidi life. I don't think it's fair to put your kids in a position where they are likely to end up as bums.
As least people like you, who have to live this crazy double like, have something that resembles a normal family/social life. If you let on, you are taking that opportunity away from your kids.
In essence, I think that if you do let on, you need to leave chareidi life and give your kids a chance. Of course, unless your wife agrees and your kids are still very young, you can't do that without messing up your whole life as you know it.
Understanding soul
>Unfortunatly there are so many "frum" men in this boat it's quite scary
ReplyDeletePeople keep on saying that, yet I don't know how true that is. Can you quantify "so many" and in what social circle you are talking about?
Hello,
ReplyDeletefrom the top of my fifties, living like this for the last 18 years, i can tell you few things.
1. defently true, kids know everything, even if not the exact details.
2. kids are smart enugh not to tell in cheider incriminating details.
3. the big dilema is, your (my) relationships with the kids, you dont want that they will treat you as a lier, but you dont realy tell tehm everything. problem.
there is no "school answer" for this!
here are my 2 cent...
walking carefuly between the drups, giving your explanation to things, for example, telling them, that no smoking on shabat even if you dont realy belive in this is a sign of consideration in people that you care abaut, and not hypocrisy, and this is why you dont do it even if you know you wont be caught.
looking back, i can say that i did not have any big mistake, and my family are all together, each of the members making his own path to life.
BAHATZLOCHO
My two cents
ReplyDeleteBH
ReplyDeleteI'm talking about general chareidi society as well as hasidic society. Not so sure about MO/YU.
While I can't qauntify how many there are, my view, from discussions with my fellow mispallim, is that a good proportion, say 25%, are non-believers. We all phrase it in different ways. Most commonly people say that they're losing faith a "the chariedi way of life". For some, they're sick of the financial pressure and expectations. I have a sneaking suspicion that deep down they think it's all a load of garbage.
Understanding soul
Twenty five percent??? Wow, someone's optimistic. Nah, if I'd have to guess, it'd be closer to 5%, at least in Hasidic society. There are people who think parts of the system are bull, but actual non-believers? Five percent is probably about what it is.
ReplyDeleteAnon
ReplyDeleteI should have been more clear. Of adult males with say, 5 years out of kollel, 25% don't really believe. They are playing the game.
Yom kippur eaters would be very low, probably closer to 1 or 2%.
US
> Of adult males with say, 5 years out of kollel, 25% don't really believe. They are playing the game. Yom kippur eaters would be very low, probably closer to 1 or 2%.
ReplyDeleteI gotta think you're pulling this out of a hat, at least in the general Charedi community, and I suspect in the Chassidic community as well. Those numbers are way way overstated.
"every father or mother who breaks through the shackles of indoctrination grapples with this very issue"
ReplyDeleteYou mean every man who has a sex addiction and rationalizes it by saying the Torah is false? What he should do is take off his stupid streimel and just leave and good riddance. Believe me, no one needs him or wants him around.
"do kids get affected negatively by a parent's action—in our case actions that are incoherent with the community at large"
ReplyDeleteObviously, this would depend on the individual kid, parent, and community. But in general, I think the answer is "no." Kids exposed to such an environment quickly catch on to the fact that adults can have differing opinions on all kinds of things, and wouldn't be much bothered it. I'd say kids (of a certain age) are even less bothered by the fact that adults disagree about certain practices and beliefs than many adults are.
Kids do sniff out hypocrisy, however. If you don't care about religious practices, best not to bother the kids too much about it. They will come to understand that this is very important to their mother (say, and the rest of the community) but much less so to their father, and they will adjust their world view accordingly. I don't see why this should have negative repercussions for their psyche. Just the opposite, in fact.
>Of adult males with say, 5 years out of kollel, 25% don't really believe.
ReplyDeleteNo way, not where I am. I don't have the numbers, no one does, but, it takes one to know one (body language at prayer, debating in shul to the point where one can get away with etc.), so I think we might be in the best position to guestimate in our own communities.
"body language at prayer, debating in shul to the point where one can get away with etc"
ReplyDeleteVery clever observation, Pen Tivokeish.
I think the problem with Anon 1's estimate is that he may not realize how the percentage translates into numbers. Let's take the Williamsburg community. There are about 9000 hasidic families in Willi. Twenty-five percent of that is 2250. Now, 9000 is the number of *families*, not people. I'm not sure what the average number per family is (probably about 4 or 5), but that would bring up the number considerably. I highly doubt that there are even 2250 non-believers in Willi, let alone 4 or 5 times that number. Again, we're talking about serious non-believers, not someone who thinks rebbes are full of BS, or that skipping a davening here and there won't put him in hell.
ReplyDeleteBaal D., I totally agree. I think we overestimate the rigidity of children's minds. Kids are capable of understanding the grey areas in life and mostly deal with it well enough. In fact, I've witnessed the exact scenario you describe (kids realizing that religion is impt. to their mom only) in more than one family, and the kids accepted the situation without it becoming a major issue in their own lives.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteLife is so simple for jewish philosopher. Everything comes down to sex.
ReplyDeletejp
ReplyDeletedo the world a favor and kill yourself.
But those that start to think the Rebbes are full of BS start down the slippery slope. It generally does not take them all the way to chillul shabbes, but they live with some degree of doubt.
ReplyDeleteAnd JP, it does not mean that they end up sleeping around or have an issue with sex, as you clearly do. It simply means they begin to question some of the things they previously thought were undisputable facts.
Kids, particularly adolescents, have a need to fit in and not feel too different from other kids. Depending on the child and his/her self-esteem and circle of friends, I think it could cause real problems for some kids to learn how different their parents are from what everyone else's parents seem to be. Kinda like the need some people felt in the past (and some do now) to hide things like mental illness in the family or the fact that Daddy is an alcoholic, particularly when their schools are teaching how bad heretics, reform/conservative jews and secular jews are. As much as you want to have an honest relationship with your children, if you decide to stay in the community and not get your children out while they are very young, then I think there may be an obligation to make it as comfortable and natural for your children to live in the community as possible. I realize this position may be controversial and am open to being convinced that I'm wrong.
ReplyDeleteHey guys, great comments here. I want to clean up my thoughts and then put it in writing. I hope to have something soon.
ReplyDeleteWannabe,
it ain't easy, and in your case perhaps you shouldn't even try. For your kids sake.
Understanding,
I'm going to second many here and wholeheartedly disagree. 25%? I daven in shul too, and from approximately a full 'cent' I can't even find ONE like me. There are a few that are slightly more literal and knowledgeable, even some who don't subscribe to the Chasidic lifestyle yet are still committed Orthodox Jews (some variation of Rambamist's) but they remain less than a handful – or less than 5%.
You must daven in an awesome shul is all I'm saying.
It reminds me of a true 'misnaged' who once told me, as a child, that most people when they grow up they stop believing in the rebbes but “it's too late”. With that I see a 25% maybe even more, but even they believe in the previous rebbes.* Although, I disagree with the “too late” it's just way too comfortable inside, why leave?
NJNP,
You get one comment per post. New rule. Old rules still apply.
----------
*from the rebbes' perspective it might very well be an honor to die, each generation and their veneration of the dead – the previous underperformers who are now zt”l's.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteJP
ReplyDeleteI really would love to understand how questioning things you were taught as a child makes you a "stoner, drunk, perv and bum".
Given your history of questioning, were you a "stoner, drunk, perv and bum".
Shtreimel - can you allow JP to respond. I am new to this and understand he may have a pattern of abusive posts. However, I would love to understand how someone who, based on his profile has a history of questioning what he was taught, can be so emphatic that anyone that follows a similar path must be a sex addict. It's funny that in all aspects of my life I'm considered a normal person. I'm happily married, great kids, good business and the rest. Yet because of some legitimate questions JP consideres that I must be a raving lunatic. What's up with that?
ReplyDeleteAnon Dear,
ReplyDeleteI can promise you that you will NOT get an answer from him.
Try emailing him. You will have a lot of fun, but no more knowledge.
Oh well. I guess in the lunatic assylum they think that they are normal and everyone on the outside are the lunatics. I'll pass on emailing him. No real desire to engage in irrational conversations.
ReplyDeleteI will be more than happy to satisfy my questioners, however I am afraid that I may cause a little cognitive dissonance for some the stoners and pervs out there. As we saw for example with the prophet Jeremiah, the truth is not always welcome.
ReplyDeletehttp://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2009/01/motives.html
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/12/am-i-traitor.html
http://jewishphilosopher.blogspot.com/2008/07/jewish-skeptics-and-sex.html
JP
ReplyDeleteI see what Shtreimel was talking about. The holes in your arguments are astonishing. In any event, you have clearly discovered the Truth, and so long as that works for you, good luck.
Unfortunatly for me, I have to continue living with my sex addiction (I don't do drugs, I have a little scotch here and there and would not generally be described as a bum. However, sex is pretty good - damn that addiction).
"The holes in your arguments are astonishing."
ReplyDeleteThe arguments are airtight. But you can't argue with addictions.
"shira said...
ReplyDeleteI think the problem with Anon 1's estimate is that he may not realize how the percentage translates into numbers. Let's take the Williamsburg community. There are about 9000 hasidic families in Willi. Twenty-five percent of that is 2250. Now, 9000 is the number of *families*, not people. I'm not sure what the average number per family is (probably about 4 or 5), but that would bring up the number considerably. I highly doubt that there are even 2250 non-believers in Willi, let alone 4 or 5 times that number."
For a long time I'm trying to come up with a percentage of hidden non believers in the cheradi world. I came up with a close to 2% number for sure. And it may be as high as 4-5%. My model was based on how many people I know and how many of then I know to be skeptics. I asked a friend to do the same and the numbers were equel, and there are I suspect many skeptics who don't dare tell it to even a single freind so we can't include them in any data...
Velvel, I'm pretty sure nearly every single skeptic eventually shares his feelings with at least one friend. And most end up finding a tiny *chevra* or community of like-minded souls. Five percent of non-believers is the maximum I'm willing to believe.
ReplyDeleteYou may be right everyone eventually has to share it othrwise he/she will get out of thier mind. And 5 percent would be the highest maximum, but let's say Williamsburg with 10000 men (women skeptic numbers are probably way lower)we get 500 at five percent that's enough to form a separate minyen..
ReplyDelete>For a long time I'm trying to come up with a percentage of hidden non believers in the cheradi world. I came up with a close to 2% number for sure.
ReplyDeleteVelvel, I suspect you mean Chassidish. I think in the Chareidi world it's far far less than 1%.
Laura,
> I'm pretty sure nearly every single skeptic eventually shares his feelings with at least one friend.
I've only told my wife, and while "it was good for me, dear", I regret it for her sake.
I've tested the waters with some friends and it's been a dismal failure.
And my circle is not even pure Chareidi, it's a mix of Chareidi Baal Habattish.
It's very dis-heartening.
Maybe I should move to Williamsburgh?
It might also be a generational thing. Younger people might be more prone to skepticism, nowadays.
(I think I'll turn most of this into a post)
Maybe I should move to Williamsburgh?
ReplyDeleteLol, yeah.
>>Maybe I should move to Williamsburgh?
ReplyDelete>Lol, yeah.
I'm glad someone saw the humour in that :)
JP never manages to answer me. In fact, he has not once visited my blog. This is because I'm a female apikorus with a family and oddly, no sex addiction or drugs or alcohol or any other addiction. I mess up the little labels in his head so he is scared. Hey, JP, Boo!
ReplyDelete> i feel almost like a bizarro mirror image of you.
ReplyDeleteI can relate to this. Even tough I'm not frum, I seem to have a strange fascination/obsession with Hasidim. I too watch videos of Hasidic rebbes on Youtube (hasunahs, mitzvah tenz, Purim, etc) and quite honestly it lifts up my neshumah. Maybe it's compensation for my lack of frumkeit. I often fantasize about growing peyos (down to my pupik :-) and walking around in drei fertelekh and lange weise zaken. (I once remember reading that an Israeli hiloni child complained to his father that it wasn't fair that the Hasidim got to 'dress up' all the time, and he couldn't.)
However, I couldn't live the limited life of a Hasid, nor of a non-Hasidic Hareidi for that matter -- Ive seen too much, and I 'know' too much. In a sense, I have vicarious fantasies that I can't carry out -- is it possible to be a part-time Hasid ? btw, great title for a tv show in movie, no ? -- but at the same time Yiddishkeit is my blood, Barukh Hashem, and there's something (is it the extreme 'differentness' from regular society ?) that attracts me to Hassidus ? In a strange sense, I see Hassidus as kind of an existential primal scream -- I'm sure Shtreimel and the others who are doubters and/or no-longer believe see things 180° opposite.
Any ideas ?
Zei Gezunt to everyone.
Ira
does anyone know anything about the mishkenos haroim chassidus ?
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I had a discussion whether or not we should buy erev pasacn matzos. She argued that since our kids will be raised as Hasidim living among Hasidim and therefore we'd want them to fit in perfectly, we're obligated to teach them how to live like real Hasidim. Faking it, by taking a thin box with regular matzos in it, won't do it. They'd figure it out sooner or later. I agreed, paid the extra $100 and ordered authentic erev pasach matzos.
ReplyDelete"if you do let on, they will become confused and messed up."
ReplyDeleteHUH? based on what exactly do you say this, and with such certainty?
The confusion and torture results from not being able to be who you are, not being loved for who you are, and having to say one thing and think another. If our writer is honest with his children and clear that he loves them no matter what, you solve all of these problems.
if he DOESN'T tell them, and they begin to doubt and question themself, they'll think they can't even talk to him. they'll go through the exact torture. imagine when they find out they could have all along, but he didn't talk to them????
What is all this about raising your kids true chassidim when both the father and the mother are non-believers. I wish the hubs would be on the same page as me, and at least move a bit toward a "middle-of-the-road Orthodox lifestyle" instead of this severe suppression! Those who are lucky enough to have spouses like them, take your kids, move to some jewish, non yentish, non-crazy judgemental but still jewish community and be happy.
ReplyDelete- S
> I wish the hubs would be on the same page as me, and at least move a bit toward a "middle-of-the-road Orthodox lifestyle" instead of this severe suppression!
ReplyDeleteExcellent point.