Friday, February 20, 2009

A Must Read

As New Yorkers do
Posted by Shtreimel at 4:26 PM

24 comments:

  1. Why in heaven's name is this piece of silly fiction (presented as truth) a must-read? So that I find out that women in Boro Park never walk leisurely? (Um, have you ever been on 13th Avenue when the weather was nice?) So that I find out that all women have the same hairstyle--a blunt bob? (Um, er, uh, I don't even know what to say to this preposterous statement.) So that I find out that a woman will be totally ignored when she wants to make a purchase? (Puh-leeze, if there's a single woman in Boro Park, blonde or brunette, Jewish or not, who's ever had such an experience, I'd like to know about it.) So that I find out that men routinely cut into lines in front of women? (How come this has never happened to me?)

    For someone who calls herself a writer, she should really check her facts before she posts such drivel. Shtreimel, what exactly did you see in this ridiculous piece that made you call it a must-read?

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  2. She may have gotten some inconsequential facts a little off, but on the whole, she describes the Boro Park that I know, and she does it well. Don't get stuck on the details, it's the spirit of the essay that's much more compelling.

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  3. Inconsequential? These are the facts that make up the essay. What did she describe that is the Boro Park you know?

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  4. Most of what she described was spot on. Even the details you listed as "fiction" rang very true for me. Most women in Boro Park *do* sport very similar straight-haired bob cuts. I have seen for myself how women are routinely ignored by male shopkeepers, and if you've never experienced a chasidic man attempting to cut in line in front of you, you must be blind.

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  5. I guess we experience two totally different Boro Parks. I found nearly nothing she wrote spot on; on the contrary, it all sounded like a repeat of cliched stereotypes. Personally, I've never had a man deliberately cut in front of me in line, and have never been ignored by a male shopkeeper. I'm not sure whether I'm an exception or the rule. Anyone?

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  6. Actually, Shtreimel, the one good part about your *must read* link is the link on that blog to conner's photojournal blog. That's worth looking at! Beautiful work.

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  7. Laura, she indeed got many things wrong. And she must have interpreted some actions wrongly (such as the AC salesperson), however, that is what I found the most intriguing: how WE look in THEIR eyes!

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  8. Hi S:
    I found an Israeli show online that might be of interest to you. The only thing is, I’m not sure how long they are going to keep it online. It’s a show about a freir who 3 out of his 4 children became balei tshiveh. Absolutely fascinating. http://www.iba.org.il/media/?recorded=tv
    Click on
    הבית היהודי
    A Fan

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  9. Shtreimel, you're very kind. "Must have interpreted some actions wrongly"? How about, she made the entire story up? C'mon, find me a single storeowner or clerk in Boro Park or Williamsburg who refuses to serve women or treats women with less courtesy than men.

    Regarding how we look in their eyes, I wouldn't use this post as a guideline. It's pretty obvious that she read up on chassidim, discovered some stereotypical views about how they treat women, and wrote up her post accordingly.

    What I find exceedingly funny, though, is how people keep commenting about her "sensitivity" and how nicely she's written about Boro Park. Puh-leeze. The entire post is an homage to her, the wonderful, uber-liberal woman who deigns to live among these kooky people. Except for the fact that she feels safe (which may be an indirect compliment to Boro Parkers), there isn't a single nice comment about Boro Park residents.

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  10. Laura,
    Indeed, I am kind. :)

    It doesn't look like a made up story. There are pictures of a real residence in Boro Park, which if you know the neighborhood well enough isn't hard to spot. And the description of the events sound true. No need for skepticism here.

    I raised my eyebrows at the line-cutting too and discussed it with my friend, during which he pointed out to me that I just cut the line (we were at a cheese tasting expo - and no, I didn't cut the line, I just came from the other side and wasn't interested in the explanation of the origins of the mold in the cheese...). It is probably not a male vs. female thing just the way it is, BD on her blog explained it better. I can see HER wrongly analyzing the line-cutting as a subjugation of women when it is entirely something else. So all she did was understand it wrongly, the episode itself may be real. (Think of this scenario: frimmer guy walks into the bakery erev shabbos, line of 3 women in front of him. He does not stand behind woman, as is halacha. He makes a quick mental note where he "belongs" at the line and when his turn comes, he asks for his kokosh. At this point some later arrival thinks that frimmer is line cutting and is doing it to woman only.)

    I wonder what the AC story is, just as much as you do. But what really happened isn't all that fascinating as is her reaction to it. Due to how she perceived us she interpreted it in a certain way. That I find amazing.

    I didn't see nice or bad, and it wouldn't concern me much. I KNOW the good AND bad of living in such a community. However, it is how she sees us that I think we should take a look at.

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  11. Oh, I don't think she made up the fact that she lives in Boro Park; I just think she made up the air conditioner story. I also think she imaginatively added the men routinely cutting in line detail. Presumably, she figured it would go well with her stereotypical assumption that chassidic men subjugate women.

    As far as the good and bad of Boro Park, that concerns me as little as it concerns you. I just thought it was hilariously ironic that people thought she was being *sensitive* to the BPers when in fact her depiction is quite negative.

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  12. Laura,
    It seems that we both agree on the facts but disagree on what came first, the chicken or the egg.

    I believe she had legitimate stereotypical behavior which she now found everywhere she turned to even if it wasn't there, while you believe that she turned to stereotypes to enhance her story.

    You think it is my kindness?

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  13. I have waited long enough. I wasn't going to comment on my blog or the attention it has been generating, but after reading what is written here (the link was posted on my own blog) I feel like I have to speak up. I in no way made up any part of my story. The AC incident, getting cut off in line-- none of it. The blog was intended to keep my family updated on my life so far away from them. I in no way was it expecting to gain as much attention as it has. Apparently it was flagged under "Borough Park" and someone on their own accord decided to forward it to a large list of people. I have no reason to lie about my experiences here. I didn't research stereotypical behavior. I didn't decide to post a blog about my "kooky" neighborhood because I am a "liberal" girl. I was just trying to paint a picture to my family about my life here. I don't need to make up stories for my family. I apologize if I have offended you, Laura for it was not my intention. I write what I see. If it's not text book correct, I apologize but that's the beauty of blogging. It doesn't have to be historically accurate. It is an online journal. A personal one. I love my neighborhood.

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  14. Meghan,
    I enjoyed your view, so have many others. Don't be discouraged. Hopefully there will be more posts of how you see us, the people in your neighborhood, who may not talk to you in person but want to know what you think.

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  15. I was in a bakery friday noon. I'm a foreigner, woman dressed in trousers, and they would just not serve me.

    As far as I analysed it, I was too slow (swiss pace), so perhaps he thought I did not know what I want, so he did not take me.

    It happens to be that people who cut me were mostly male.

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  16. Were you left hanging indefinitely? Somehow I cannot see this as a woman with trousers thing. You do realize that Friday noon is rush hour, right?

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  17. Yes, I was left hanging indefinitely, and my friend (not in trousers & sheitel) was served in the end, so we got our challes or whatever.

    As I said, I came to the conclusion that it was because I was too slow. But it makes a really weird impression.

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  18. I greatly enjoyed reading Meghan's post, and it does to a great extent reflect what people not familiar with frum people perceive: yes, there are different kinds of sheitels, but indeed, with their not-so-natural thickness, exact cuts and hairlines, they resemble each other more than does natural hair. Yes, there are plenty of Chasidishe men who (try to) cut in line if you are not dressed like one from their circles [imagine the amusement on my end and the horror on their end when a Yiddish slur escapes my lips] - and that has got nothing to do with Shabos shopping as I've made it a matter of habit to let frum folks proceed to the cashier in my spot on Friday afternoons, but a disproportionate number of males has tried to cut in line in front of me. There are ones that even beat the famed NY rudeness. Here's a little experiment for everybody: try to dress distinctively not frum and do either downtown Manhattan Century21 or Macy's - choose the latter's one-day-sale if you're brave.

    Meghan, I've added your blog to my RSS feed as I greatly enjoy your style of writing. I wish you the best of luck with your enterprises (BTW, there are better - and cheaper - places to visit than Paris...), and I'd be delighted to meet you in person next time I'm in NYC.

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  19. Meghan -- let me also chime in my deep respect for where "you're holding", as the Hebrish expression goes. This means your attitude; inner orientation.

    I write from Jerusalem, within one of the most "ultra-Orthodox" enclaves. I come from a very non-Jewish, secularly enlightened, USA upbringing.

    Your comments here are in some ways even more compelling than your article. AMAZING how long you held off from commenting! Your gentle but unyeilding courage to say it as you see it is refreshing. Thank G-d there doesn't seem to be any lingering xenophobia or religious bias moving at play.

    Now all that said, I want to share with you (and this blog -- thank you Shtreimel) my profound disturb about the line-cutting phenomenon. It's not just about rudeness or even possible anti-feminism. There's this subtle undercurrent of impatience bordering on condescension for the machinations of the real world. And for those of us who have become so enthralled with the THEORY of chassidic and it's OVERARCHING SPIRIT, those other energies profoundly shake us up.

    It doesn't just happen to women. It goes on also with those of lesser apparent Jewish religiosity; between those in the establishment groove and those relatively outside.

    You see there is a deep complex going on here in the sense of mission to be the Almighty's Chosen. With all the Divine Light that this implies, there are also some very scary shadows.

    Your perspective helps us getter a better handle on how the interplay between them works.

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  20. Haredim in Israel just tend to be rude by Western standards as far as lining up, pushing etc. etc. I figure they just grow in large families where they all have to fight each other for attention and nobody can control them that well.

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  21. Question is, how many of the chassidish, long coated men want to bang this woman?

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  22. I am a secular Jew living in the Hassidic community in Williamsburg-- and I *do* repeatedly have trouble with the way Hassidic men treat me. Forgetting that I may speak Yiddish, they call me a whore in the elevator, one spit on my shoes. Many of them push the door closed in my face when I carry heavy bags; one rushed by me in the doorway when I was carrying groceries and slammed my bags into the wall, breaking the eggs I was carrying. Walking on the paths, many don't yield their paths, even if they're walking 3 or 4 side by side; I've fallen on the ice before when 3 Hasidic men walking side by side refused took the entire shoveled path, shoving me up onto the ice. Worst of all, one man last week hit me with his car-- then honked and drove away-- when I was crossing at a yellow light and had right of way. Not every man is like this, but to say that as a woman who's not visibly part of the community I'm not treated badly in my own neighborhood is a very dangerous form of denial.

    (My personal favorite: my first week living in this neighborhood, two men on a scooter passed by-- one called out "Hey, come with us, we'll show you a good time." The second yelled at him, saying "No, she's Jewish.") If only my imagination were good enough that I could make these stories up!

    Being Jewish, and understanding anti-Semitism for what it is, I go out of my way to teach and explain the customs to people in the community who complain about things like the Shabbos elevator and siren, etc., but it's awfully difficult to run a good PR campaign when this is the truth about how outsiders are treated.

    -TB

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  23. TB,
    Hope you're reading this. Please check this website: http://www.unpious.com/

    Contact me by email at chasidheretic@gmail.com

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  24. To this Web site owner and to all similar anti-Torah/anti-Frum Web site owners:

    I'm a Jew and a baal teshuva. I don't HAVE to learn or do any of the mitzvos.

    Neither do you.

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