Skeleton asks: “Have you ever noticed, that Hasidic rebellious teenagers, like secular teenagers, have no ambitions beyond scoring weed and women?”
The answer is two pronged but first; I find it disheartening that someone like Skeleton, a person very much capable of critical thought and inquiry before accepting dogma would not realize that her statement is seeped in the ignorant widespread belief of the Orthodox community, belief that if isn't intentionally misguided, still is necessary to keep their other beliefs intact.
It wouldn't be the first time I hear this statement, and while it isn't directly directed at me (not because I have never occasionally experimented weed, but because I'm not officially OTD, and am no longer a teenager), I take offense in the name of truth.
First, scoring weed and woman is not as frightening as they set it out to be. There's a strong biological drive for a healthy human to copulate – otherwise we wouldn't survive beyond the first generation. Weed, a recreational drug, less harmful and less addictive than alcohol isn't all that great it is made out to be by myth in the Chassidic yeshiva (“A drug that makes you forget all your problems – you feel as if you're in Gan Eden”), in fact I find it sickly and it induces paranoia and irrational scares. But some, arguably, take real pleasure in it, while others relish its sacredness, or illicitness. So, seeing someone actively perusing one the above and thinking what he would do otherwise, as a yeshiva bocher – had he stayed one, the conclusion must be “good for him”.
Yet, the generalization of the statement, the fact that most people within the confinement of the Chassidic ghetto think of all the OTD'ers as “drug addicts” has nothing to do with the real facts. It is just as valid as the statement concerning “secular” youngsters. While many are definitely not the scholarly type, not only secular kids, but most kids in general, including Chassidisher kids, there are countless brilliant kids who attend some of the greatest schools in this country. (Yes, most seek carnal pleasures in their spare time too, and there's nothing wrong with that.) And of course, there are some, if not many, young teenagers who believe that they will conquer the world, they will be the next Einstein, they will cure cancer, or reconcile science.
The make up of these kids in college is probably more than its share in Chassidsher yeshivos, only for the reason that teenagers who aren't interested in higher education in the secular world, for the most part, won't go to school. They have no shiduchim fear, or “past nisht” fear.
(After writing it up I get the feeling that Skeleton was kidding, and meant something that I must have missed – in which case I apologize.)

I think it would be fair to characterize those Orthodox Jews who convert to atheism as being generally sexually compulsive, undisciplined slobs. In fact, I would speculate that the higher of intelligence of Jews is due to the constant attrition over the centuries of such people from the Jewish community.
ReplyDeleteGood riddance to bad garbage.
Skeleton wasn't kidding, but you are taking my words out of context. I wasn't trying to give a "muessar shmooze", and believe me I would've grabbed a joint in Amsterdam if I wasn't afraid that stoned, I'd miss my flight.
ReplyDeleteMy point was merely that teenagers aren't usually people with serious ambitions, and that if we were to truly "liberate" chassidishe children we'd need to allow for later marriage. For most people, by the time they hit their low to mid 20's, they've already figured out that life can't consist of limitless supplies of pot and poonanny.
But I do disagree with you as to the necessity of the centrality of drugs and sex in the life of the teenager. The desire might be central, but there's no excuse for overindulgence and it certainly doesn't produce better adults, for the most part.
Many teenagers, Skeleton, not all. And my point is that there is no difference between Yeshiva boys and College boys other than what they chase (skirts vs. pants and weed vs. some 'geneiveh' from the kitchen). Most people just get through the system, while some excel in their studies.
ReplyDeleteEven "Hasidic rebellious teenagers" aren't all made of the same mold. I know quite a few serious kids who flunked yeshiva but are seriously engaged in college. (and I hope they don't deprive themselves of worldly pleasures nonetheless.)
You're talking about the nerds and geeks. Dee veist dus aleins.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I disagree with the "shittoh" that everything outside the chassidishe world is infected with the Bubonic Plague. We do a grave disservice to our children by limiting them so severely that when they do decide to expand their horizons they turn to pathetic and destructive behaviors instead of building a constructive future. It sets up for failure those have already failed in the chassidishe world.
Hmmm, well, yes and no. Some, as I have said, manage to do both, carnal pleasures AND serious studies.
ReplyDeleteNow, there's something to be said for marrying off kids at 18 without them the faintest knowledge of what is going on out there and thus make their own choices. Many, otherwise studious youngsters end up stuck in a life they don't care much for.
One of my Chassidic teachers in cheder used to say, “Those who waste their time not learning Torah go through hell in both worlds.” Ha ha; very funny. Poor mediocre boy who’s not tame enough to sit on his tuches from dawn to dusk is left with no other choice but to do it anyway.
ReplyDeleteThe yeshiva curriculum is monochromic; all they do is study Talmud. No gym, no sports, no lab, no field sights. If Talmud study is not for you, then nothing else is. Well, you can still sleep in, plot your next kitchen robbery, or tune in to emergency radio channels and scan through Hatzolah chatter all day long.
It’s hard to imagine what a non-scholarly yeshiva boy goes through.
Do you mean bums, product?
ReplyDeleteNJNP, can't show any sympathy for someone whose skills lie somewhere outside "learning" gemara?
ReplyDeleteAre you that narrow as to imagine a world where only the gemara learners are the ones that really matter?
Why would you call them bums?
Some people are actually very talented people, only, because of people with your mindset, these kids have no choice but to make a different life for themselves.
You are a very nasty man.
From my part, keep it up, NJNP.
Let more and more people leave the fold.
I happen to be a huge sweetie pie. However, I fail to understand how a Jew can be uninterested in studying the revealed word of God. What greater priviledge can there be?
ReplyDeleteNJNP,
ReplyDeleteYou've exhausted your commenting limit on this post. No more comments allowed.
"They have no shiduchim fear"
ReplyDeleteNot having a college degree is definitely a negative if you want a high quality spouse I would think...
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ReplyDeleteProduct, NNJP:
ReplyDeleteExactly my point.
You label all boys who can't stand gemara "bums" and "unscholarly." How about "just not interested in gemara?"
I was considered very bright and never had a problem learning gemara. If I had any interest, I could be a big talmud chacham. However, I have, and almost never have had, zero interest in that field of learning. Like Shtreimel and Mordy correctly point out, there's no other option for a good yeshiva boy.
And no, I don't do drugs.
Non-scholarly is not an offensive term. A scholar is someone who is learned, a specialist, or studious. Anybody not in one of the above categories is non-scholarly. He or she may still be an excellent and brilliant person, though.
ReplyDeleteA person may be a scholar if he chooses one discipline over another, e.g. science over Talmud. However, when only one course of study is available, e.g. at yeshiva, and a student chooses to idle instead of engaging in that discipline no matter how dull and useless, that person is, in my opinion, a non-scholar.
JP, they are only "bums" because instead of doing something productive, as they should be, they bum around and do nothing.
ReplyDeleteThere should be alternatives to full-time yeshiva study so that boys who can't or won't comply can still be gainfully employed.
There should be alternatives to full-time yeshiva study
ReplyDeleteThere are; there are plenty. Problem is yeshiva students are discouraged to turn in that direction.
>Have you ever noticed, that Hasidic rebellious teenagers, like secular teenagers, have no ambitions beyond scoring weed and women?”
ReplyDeleteI can see it. But who can blame them in wanting to make up for lost time and opportunity? Hopefully, they'll get an education and bounce back to a balanced life.
BH I agree with you the reason Hasidic rebellious teenagers, like secular teenagers, have no ambitions beyond scoring weed and women is because they have not received any education to strive for anything more fulfilling. All they know is the DVD's they have watched behind their parents back...
ReplyDeleteBut not EVERYONE is like that is all I'm saying guys. You need to know more people that left before you make this statement.
ReplyDeleteShreimel - Everyone is a very general word...Skel's point is well taken though...
ReplyDeleteIf 'everyone' is a general word then how is Skel's point well taken? That is exactly what I'm disagreeing. There are many who actively seek education and a 'normal' lifestyle. I know them personally, and on their behalf I take offense.
ReplyDeleteTeens are going to have some kind of sex no matter what. The only question is whether they're having sex with a partner or jerking off to whatever's on hand. Biologically, our teenage years are when we are supposed to have sex. (The Torah, btw, endorses teen sex. Female betrothals were cossummated at twelve years old - the girl had no say in it. Even the Talmud says you gotta marry by 18 and he who is unmarried at 24 is cursed and wicked.)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThe notion that students which are secular through upbringing or by choice are "bums" etc. is nothing but ignorant and bespeaks a way of reasoning that we in German refer to as "thinking in drawers", i.e. labelling people with pre-made labels, thus associating them with stereotypes that might or might not hold true.
ReplyDeleteAs far as secular students are concerned, teaching at college, I can assure you that my students do have way more on their mind than sexual intercourse and inebriation. Most of them get up around 5am to 6am to be in class in time; classes for most last till the early or mid-afternoon (I've also got students that take night classes as they work full-time). Many do part-time jobs to make their own ends meet, to contribute to their families' budgets, to support their own kids or plainly to pay for extra indulgences (such as vacations, cars et al.). They either work in the evenings or on weekends and try to balance their jobs and their studies at the same time. Somebody who is focused on sex and drugs will fall just as much through the scholarly grid in the secular world as a religious person will in the yeshiva world.
NJNP,
ReplyDeleteIs it intellectual confusion or emotional deliberatency?
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ReplyDeletePardon my naivete, but I don't live in NYC, Lakewood, or Monsey, but are there really a lot of rebellious chassidic teenagers? I don't see it, it at least in the area I'm in, but then I don't try to look for it.
ReplyDeleteIchabod Chrain
I read your blog regularly, as I am sure many do, and you have been one of the few in my blogroll as well.
ReplyDeleteHere's a meme, if you do them.
I am tagging all those blogs that are regulars on my read list with this meme.
Here's the meme. Maybe you've heard the "This, I believe" NPR program?
Write twenty sentences starting with, "I believe". It can be silly or serious. I was in a philosophical mindset when I wrote mine.
I'd love to include a link to your answer in this post.
http://www.myjblog.com/archives/103
I agree with you oh furry hatted one. It is far too easy to generalise like that. I know some OTDs who have gone on to become fairly successful MOs. More importantly I myself found life stifling inside before I became old enough to realise that I could make my own choices even while remaining inside.
ReplyDeleteWhile I do enjoy both pot and kosher carnal pleasures I am able to control my urges at least as well as many who look down their noses at my 'lax' lifestyle.
I would have to disagree with your comment that there's nothing wrong with the average college student's illicit behavior. Though it's politically incorrect to say it, it's actually extremely unhealthy behavior, both physically and psychologically.
ReplyDeleteamiafrymfeminist, thats silly.get w the program
ReplyDeleteas for the rest of you, most of us believe toa certain extent we just dont give a shit about religion ,either cuz were lazy or cuz were surrounded by ppl and culture that is more real than our beliefs.unnless maybe that makes us nonbeleivers. but then again.every time someone duza sin,he obviously has some sort of lapse of belief--
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