Sometimes while listening to the news broadcasts, watching some of the pundits, and reading articles online (mostly on the Huffington Post) I want to scream out that if all wars were to be fought proportionality then we would still be fighting the First World War. How on earth does one win a war by tit-for-tat blows that serves no purpose? Please tell me.
3 hours ago
The current action isn't going to win the war, either. It's not even a war, really. So talking about "winning" is stupid. Israel could "win" by ethnic cleansing or by genocide pretty much any time it wants to. It and the rest of the world finds those "solutions" immoral, though, so instead they work to fight terrorism. The current actions are a ridiculous way to do so, because they will inevitably cause more backlash than they are worth. They'll probably also lose more soldiers in this one action than Israelis have died by all Qassams in the history of Qassams. In addition to killing hundreds of civilians.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely. A country has the moral right to throw atoms in retaliation of sinking a couple ships.
ReplyDeleteNot all wars end in capitulation. Winning is defined as achieving the goals set for the campaign even if that means further trouble. This campaign is attempting to stop rocket fire into southern Israel, and it is still an achievable objective.
This war's merits are debatable, however. Like many debates, a winner might mot be declared for a long time after this is over.
Sometimes a bloodied nose deters further violence.
ReplyDeleteJA,
ReplyDeleteNo one thinks of this operation as the last word in the Israeli/Arab conflict. But the objective here is to stop the further escalation of rockets flying into, well, everywhere pretty soon. That I think can be achieved.
And, as many soldiers that will inevitably die during this conflict, sadly, some of friendly fire (as was just released) too, it won't be as many as would die if Israel just leaves the situation be. A perfect example would be the West Bank operation in 2002 that killed many IDF soldiers but saved many more lives after destroying (partially - but still enough) the suicide cells.
Q: How can Israel justify killing civilians if their intent is to crush Hamas?
ReplyDeleteA: The death of innocents is a tragic inevitability of war. Our hearts go out to all those caught in the middle. The sad fact is that the Palestinian people are being held hostage by Hamas. Just as it is clear that Hamas is morally culpable for any harm done to Gilad Shalit, the Israeli hostage that they hold, so too are they culpable for the fate of Palestinian innocents amongst whom they hide. A civilian who is killed while being used by a terrorist as a human shield is a victim of the terrorist, not the Israeli army, who does not target innocent civilians.
Q: Isn't Israel's response a bit disproportionate?
A: If Israel were merely taking revenge, then it would need to be proportionate. But Israel is waging a defensive war. Since when is war proportionate? In war, you don't measure your response to the enemy by what they have done to you in the past, but rather by what needs to be done to stop them attacking in the future. Israel must destroy Hamas' capability to continue shooting rockets at Israeli cities. Israel's actions are proportionate to the present and future threat, not just the damage done in the past.
Q: Doesn't Israel understand that they are just creating more terrorists? The anger and fury at Israel as a result of bombing Gaza will only make more people want to join Hamas.
A: Feelings of frustration, anger, fear and rage do not make you into a terrorist. A culture of death and an education of hate does. Israel doesn't need to do anything to create terrorists - Islamic extremism does that - but Israel must act to destroy those who threaten its people.
Q: Hamas indeed has a militant wing, but it also does a lot of good. They are responsible for social programs, educational projects and humanitarian work in Gaza. By destroying Hamas, Israel also destroys all the good they do. Isn't that demonising a group that is not all bad?
A: If a serial killer also happens to volunteer for his local hospital, has donated money to an orphanage, and looks after his ailing grandmother, he is still a serial killer, and should be treated as such. The danger he poses far outweighs the concern for any good he may do.
Q: By using violence, how is Israel any better than its terrorist enemies?
A: That is as ridiculous as saying that a woman who fights off an attacker is no better than her attacker. Israel would not touch Hamas if Hamas would stop sending rockets and suicide bombers into Israel. Israel seeks to live in peace with its neighbours; Hamas and its allies seek to destroy Israel, no matter what Israel does.
For Hamas, war is holy. For Israel, war can never be holy. War may be necessary, like when your citizens are being attacked unprovoked; war may be moral, like when innocent lives are being threatened; but even then, war is never holy.
I agree with the poster and with everyone else but my main view on the thing is that Israel SHOULD HAVE cleared out all of the enemy in 1948 or AT THE VERY LATEST in 1967.
ReplyDeleteI don't mean kill them just stop trying to be some sort of super duper moral freak and do what every single successful nation on Earth has ever done when faced with an intractable adversary. Clear them the fuck out.
To give just one example as to when and how Israel should have done it - the non-nation of Jordan started a war with absolutely zero pretext in 1967. At that time when Israel pulled Jordan's fingers off of her neck she had every right and every understanding from "de velt" that she should have moved Jordan's attacking citizens back into Jordan and annexed the West Bank immediately. The non-country of Jordan is about twice Israel's size and is almost entirely vacant. It starts a war, it looses territory (that never belonged to her in the first place) and its citizens need to move. That's how shit works in this world. Every nation you've ever heard of engaged in it - that's why you fuckin heard of them.
So I have a hard time supporting this war. I'm interested in a final solution to the Jewish problem and bloodying up your enemy's nose so that he'll come back with his cousin to cut your arms off aint the solution. Kill the fuckin enemy. May Jabotinsky's wish be fulfilled: Yukam lanu geza gaon v'nadiv v'achzar. Only Rosh Etzel can be trusted to make a lasting peace. When your enemy knows that you've got no self-esteem issues and that you're willing to do whatever it takes to protect your kids then you'll be able to be nadiv also.
Yukam lanu manhig.
mnuez
{{{Top 5 Lies about Israel's Assault on Gaza}}}
ReplyDeleteLie #1: Israel is only targeting legitimate military sites and is seeking to protect innocent lives. Israel never targets civilians.
The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime.
Moreover, the people Israel claims are legitimate targets are members of Hamas, which Israel says is a terrorist organization. Hamas has been responsible for firing rockets into Israel. These rockets are extremely inaccurate and thus, even if Hamas intended to hit military targets within Israel, are indiscriminate by nature. When rockets from Gaza kill Israeli civilians, it is a war crime.
Hamas has a military wing. However, it is not entirely a military organization, but a political one. Members of Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Dozens of these elected leaders have been kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons without charge. Others have been targeted for assassination, such as Nizar Rayan, a top Hamas official. To kill Rayan, Israel targeted a residential apartment building. The strike not only killed Rayan but two of his wives and four of his children, along with six others. There is no justification for such an attack under international law. This was a war crime.
Other of Israel’s bombardment with protected status under international law have included a mosque, a prison, police stations, and a university, in addition to residential buildings.
Moreover, Israel has long held Gaza under siege, allowing only the most minimal amounts of humanitarian supplies to enter. Israel is bombing and killing Palestinian civilians. Countless more have been wounded, and cannot receive medical attention. Hospitals running on generators have little or no fuel. Doctors have no proper equipment or medical supplies to treat the injured. These people, too, are the victims of Israeli policies targeted not at Hamas or legitimate military targets, but directly designed to punish the civilian population.
Lie #2) Hamas violated the cease-fire. The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire and is designed to end such rocket attacks.
Israel never observed the cease-fire to begin with. From the beginning, it announced a “special security zone” within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon. In other words, Israel announced its intention that Israeli soldiers would shoot at farmers and other individuals attempting to reach their own land in direct violation of not only the cease-fire but international law.
Despite shooting incidents, including ones resulting in Palestinians getting injured, Hamas still held to the cease-fire from the time it went into effect on June 19 until Israel effectively ended the truce on November 4 by launching an airstrike into Gaza that killed five and injured several others.
Israel’s violation of the cease-fire predictably resulted in retaliation from militants in Gaza who fired rockets into Israel in response. The increased barrage of rocket fire at the end of December is being used as justification for the continued Israeli bombardment, but is a direct response to the Israeli attacks.
Israel's actions, including its violation of the cease-fire, predictably resulted in an escalation of rocket attacks against its own population.
Lie #3) Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.
There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of property that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as “human shields” in its propaganda. There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.
Lie #4) Arab nations have not condemned Israel’s actions because they understand Israel’s justification for its assault.
The populations of those Arab countries are outraged at Israel’s actions and at their own governments for not condemning Israel’s assault and acting to end the violence. Simply stated, the Arab governments do not represent their respective Arab populations. The populations of the Arab nations have staged mass protests in opposition to not only Israel's actions but also the inaction of their own governments and what they view as either complacency or complicity in Israel's crimes.
Moreover, the refusal of Arab nations to take action to come to the aid of the Palestinians is not because they agree with Israel’s actions, but because they are submissive to the will of the US, which fully supports Israel. Egypt, for instance, which refused to open the border to allow Palestinians wounded in the attacks to get medical treatment in Egyptian hospitals, is heavily dependent upon US aid, and is being widely criticized within the population of the Arab countries for what is viewed as an absolute betrayal of the Gaza Palestinians.
Even Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been regarded as a traitor to his own people for blaming Hamas for the suffering of the people of Gaza. Palestinians are also well aware of Abbas' past perceived betrayals in conniving with Israel and the US to sideline the democratically elected Hamas government, culminating in a counter-coup by Hamas in which it expelled Fatah (the military wing of Abbas' Palestine Authority) from the Gaza Strip. While his apparent goal was to weaken Hamas and strengthen his own position, the Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East are so outraged at Abbas that it is unlikely he will be able to govern effectively.
Lie #5) Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted.
Israel claims it sent radio and telephone text messages to residents of Gaza warning them to flee from the coming bombardment. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to. They are trapped within the Gaza Strip. It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border. It is by Israeli design that they have no food, water, or fuel by which to survive. It is by Israeli design that hospitals in Gaza have no electricity and few medical supplies with which to treat the injured and save lives. And Israel has bombed vast areas of Gaza, targeting civilian infrastructure and other sites with protected status under international law. No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.
The above comment is a robocomment that has been polluting hundreds of blogs around the world. A lot of nerve.
ReplyDeleteSee here "within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon"
the html didn't come out right, lemme try again.
ReplyDelete"within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon"
Maybe your problem is what you're reading. The Puffington Host is a collection of drivel spewed by leftist imbeciles. Why would you think they'd support Israel?
ReplyDeleteShtreimel old Friend!
ReplyDeleteKeeping well I hope?
Theres a very simple solution.
Stop reading them and stop listening to their news broadcasts! That's what I've done and now I don't become that angry any more!
There's plenty other stuff to read instead as well as other sources of news.
A couple of examples.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article5461544.ece
"It is difficult sometimes to avoid the feeling that Hamas and Hezbollah don't want to kill Jews because they hate Israel. They hate Israel because they want to kill Jews."
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3210031/the-hamas-broadcasting-corporation-ctd.thtml
"But the BBC did not tell its viewers the important fact that every single journalist and media utterance coming out of Gaza is controlled by Hamas. In other words, you can’t believe a thing that anyone there tells you."
And here's a blog which is pretty good source of news.
http://www.israellycool.com/
There's loads more pro Israel stuff there. You only have to know where to look.
And whilst I'm at it, Tel Aviv is more densely populated than Gaza City. Fact
http://www.spectator.co.uk/stephenpollard/631851/gaza-is-not-too-crowded.thtml
Oh no guys, I like the Huffington Post, and they are mostly right (er, left, that is), but when it comes to war being a pacifist only works well when the other side is one too. That's all I'm saying.
ReplyDelete"Lie #3) Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.
ReplyDeleteThere has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&NR=1
Hi Everybody:
ReplyDeleteI agree with the shaigetz “Sometimes a bloodied nose deters further violence,” if only he would have capitalized the word “sometimes.” There is very little that will deter Hamas from shooting more rockets into Israel. Hamas don’t mind dying, as long as they die in a holy war. Besides, a lot more Israeli’s will die and get injured in this incursion than died from the rocket attacks. This was all done so that Barak will get a few more votes. What a DISASTER!
The Cynic
"Lie #3) Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.
ReplyDeleteThere has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE&eurl=http://www.muqata.blogspot.com/&feature=player_embedded
- Ari
23 proofs of Israel’s defeat in the 23-day war
ReplyDeleteIsrael began its Operation Cast Lead against Hamas in the Gaza Strip on December 27, 2008, an almost three-week long bloodbath which killed or wounded thousands of civilians.
Taking into consideration the lessons the regime learned from its defeat in the summer 2006 war against the Lebanese Hezbollah, Tel Aviv avoided setting out any specific objectives for its military operation in a bid to enable it to claim victory after the conflict ended.
The Israeli military initially presumed that it could settle its old score with Hamas and crush the movement in a matter of days. Relying on the support of some Arab states which viewed Hamas’ defeat as a blow to Iran, the regime, therefore, took the opportunity provided by the transitional period in the White House and escalated its bombing campaign into a full-blown ground offensive to kill Hamas leaders once and for all.
The plan, however, blew up in the face of its masterminds; everything spiralled out of control and the Israeli Army found itself stuck in a quagmire. Subsequently, the leaders of the Kadima Party who were on the brink of political bankruptcy and had resorted to the plan to save themselves ahead of the general elections, had to hastily find a way to clean up the mess.
They unilaterally declared a truce to break the deadlock while disguising their military failure as a humanitarian act.
However, Israeli military and political officials interestingly are still boasting about a decisive victory over Hamas. The reality on the ground proves the opposite; it indicates a defeat more humiliating than what the regime suffered in the 33-day war.
Israel was ,without doubt, the loser because:
1- From the military perspective, “the most powerful” army in the Middle East which faced only a militia group hardly advanced into the Gaza Strip’s urban areas. It faced fierce resistance and realized that the price of any military victory would be too high.
2- At the beginning of the operation, Israel announced that the operation was aimed at preventing rocket attacks by Hamas and other Palestinian groups against Israeli towns. Palestinians, however, continued striking Israeli targets, even in the last hours of the war.
3- Hamas extended the range of its rockets and managed to hit targets as far away as 60 kilometres from the Gaza Strip. In fact, the Israeli operation helped Hamas boost its military might.
4- In the course of killing civilians, the Israeli regime set up a factory for producing living time bombs which will jeopardize the security situation for Israel. Civilian casualties in any conflict always radicalize members of bereaved families. Following the massacre of civilians in Gaza, it is more likely that those Palestinians who adopted a nonviolent approach to resist the Israeli occupation, will now turn to military tactics. Keep in mind that many of them have noting to lose.
5- Israel hastily signed an agreement with the US-a third party which was not directly involved in the war-to prevent “the arm smuggling” into the Gaza Strip. The deal envisaged measures to prevent Hamas from rearming, going so far as to for example seek US assistance in policing sea routes to Gaza and providing Egypt with the equipment to destroy smuggling tunnels along its border with the coastal sliver. This was however nothing but a propaganda tactic to persuade public opinion that the war had had some achievements. Shin Bet’s announcement that Hamas will be able to rearm within a few months supports this notion. The Israeli media has also revealed that Washington has given no guarantees to Tel Aviv that Hamas would not be rearmed.
6- Hamas has vowed to restore its arsenals, dealing a blow to Israeli officials who claim that the movement has been “punished” and it knows that it cannot continue its armed campaign against Israel.
7- No high-ranking Hamas leader, except Said Siyam, was killed in the Israeli operation. In fact, it is estimated that out of more than thousands of victims of the Israeli offensive, only 95 people were Hamas members and most of them were killed on the first day of the attack when Hamas was caught off guard due to alleged betrayal of some Arab states.
8- Israel’s defeat by a small group has shattered the image of an invincible army that overpowered the army of several Arab nations in 1967. It would not be surprising if Israel’s arch foes were encouraged to settle their old score with the regime after its recent defeat. No matter what you have in your arsenals, you are considered the loser if you have been defeated in your enemy’s mind. Israel seems to have entered the spiral of decline.
9- From the political perspective, Israel’s situation is not any better than the one in the military arena. For the first time, two Israeli ambassadors were expelled, a big diplomatic humiliation for Tel Aviv.
10- The indiscriminate killing of civilians including women and children drew international condemnation to the point that the US, which always vetoes UN Security Council resolutions against Israel, was neutralized and gave in to mounting international pressure when the council voted on a binding resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire.
11- Israel’s strategy of decreasing Hamas’s popularity through putting pressure on the Gazans has obviously backfired. The Islamic movement emerged more popular than ever before after the war, because any group or person who deals a blow to Israel will be praised as a hero in the eyes of Arab nations. We witnessed the phenomenon during the 33-day war which made Sayyed Hasan Nasrollah the most popular Arab leader in the Islamic world.
12- Following the Gaza war, Mahmoud Abbas’s political life came to an end. Now, Abbas who was reportedly preparing himself for returning to Gaza after the Hamas government was toppled, has to desperately beg to political brokers to find a place for him in the political future of Palestine. If Abbas loses in the Palestinian Authority general elections - a strong possibility given the situation after the Gaza war- Israel will lose its partner for peace talks.
13- Kadima’s hopes for victory in the upcoming elections have been dashed. In other words, right-wing parties like the Likud and people like Israel Beitenu’s and Shas’s hawks will come to power, fanatics who do not even believe in peace. Israel should brace itself for days during which there would be no hope for a political solution to the current conflict.
14- The Gaza war managed another sort of uncalled for achievement for Israel: it united all Muslims and anti-Israeli parties across the world! The world has never witnessed such massive anti-Israeli rallies.
15- Hamas has set a good example for others. A small group managed to defeat the most powerful army in the Middle East. It would not be surprising if someday, we see Israel struggling to survive in a battle with a host of small or big groups and organizations which adopt military resistance as their approach.
16- The Israelis have realized that their leaders are unable to protect them; there is no safe place inside the occupied territories. It means that Israel’s worst nightmare is coming true: a dramatic rise in the rate of negative immigration followed by major demographical impacts. It could shake the foundation of the Israeli regime through changing the Jewish people to a minority group in occupied Palestine. The apprehensions about this issue have so far prompted the regime to deny Palestinian refugees the right to return to their land.
17- After the war, the world is recognizing Hamas as a major player whose role can no longer be ignored and it cannot be excluded from any political process in the Middle East.
18- Prime Minister Isma’il Haniyah called the war “Forqan”, a Quranic word meaning what separates good and evil. The outcome of the war weakened those Arab states who had adopted a pro-Israeli stance. On the other hand, it also highlighted the significance of the role of pro-resistance countries including Iran and Syria. Therefore, the balance of power has changed with regards to Israel’s interests.
19- Kadima leaders made a fool of themselves and showed that they lack the qualifications required to lead the regime. Kadima, which was set up by former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to end the regime’s political deadlock, committed a political suicide by attacking Gaza.
20- The war also weakened the political base of those leaders of Islamic countries who are close to Israel. They have to face their people. The process has already started as we have witnessed demonstrations in some countries in which political or social protests are rare.
21- Despite non-stop bombing of the Gaza Strip by unconventional weapons, Gazans kept their high morale, a fact reported by Western journalists. There were no long queues of people at border crossings wanting to flee to a safe place. Inside Israeli towns, scores of people were treated for “shock” everyday. In other words, Israel has also lost the psychological war.
22- The war unfortunately fuelled anti-Semitic sentiments across the world. Although attacks on Jews or their property under any pretext are certainly condemned, the fact indicates that Israel, despite paying lip service to the world Jewry, never considers the interests of the Jewish. Tel Aviv even turned down a request by 11 prominent leaders of the British Jewish community who asked the regime to stop its offensive for the sake of their security.
23- There are and will be groups which will open legal cases against Israel in international courts for its war crimes in Gaza. If Hamas had been destroyed, Israeli leaders might have been able to claim that it had been worth paying such a heavy price. But without achieving anything , how can they justify their acts which have drawn a wave of international condemnation?
The Gaza war has certainly changed the status quo against Israel. History seems to repeat itself; the situation is the same as that of the days after the end of the 33-Day War except for one thing: this time, the regime has no excuse to justify its defeat; there was no inexperienced defence minister leading the war.
The Gaza war dealt the last blow to the Israeli regime and its end result is the start of a battle within the regime which will put its very existence at risk.
Those who make a mistake once may be considered as inexperienced but those who repeat their mistakes are certainly judged as being “incompetent and insane”. Shall we expect another Winograd report?
Demand The Human Rights is not enough, we must exercise them every day.
ReplyDeleteFelipe
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